Sustainer/turbo gliders

Is this one yours, Renny?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnHaBF9VTcM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnHaBF9VTcM

On 4/4/2015 4:52 PM, Renny wrote:
On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 11:08:53 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Was hoping to get comments regarding a glider with a sustainer engine. Would you buy another one, are you happy with the sustainer, do you wish you had gotten a motor glider, a pure glider, how do you fly differently, do you actually get more soaring in or less because of the extra weight......

do you use headsets for hearing protection with engine running... engine can achieve a positive rate of climb to what density altitude....? Am considering purchasing a glider with a sustainer and am looking for all information I can get. i am a Western USA pilot, but have flown in many parts of the country.
My choice for sustainer is the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) for the following reasons:

1. It is extremely simple to operate.
2. It is very, very reliable.
3. It is very quiet.
4. It does a fine job at high elevation airports like Moriarty which is at 6,200 feet.
5. The "range" of 60 miles (or so depending on battery charge) is enough to get me back to Moriarty or to another airport.
5. If it were not to start, there is absolutely no additional drag penalty.

I will, most likely, never own another glider without one!
Thanks - Renny



--
Dan Marotta

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 10:11:46 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Is this one yours, Renny?



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnHaBF9VTcM




On 4/4/2015 4:52 PM, Renny wrote:



On Friday, April 3, 2015 at 11:08:53 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:


Was hoping to get comments regarding a glider with a sustainer engine. Would you buy another one, are you happy with the sustainer, do you wish you had gotten a motor glider, a pure glider, how do you fly differently, do you actually get more soaring in or less because of the extra weight......

do you use headsets for hearing protection with engine running... engine can achieve a positive rate of climb to what density altitude....? Am considering purchasing a glider with a sustainer and am looking for all information I can get. i am a Western USA pilot, but have flown in many parts of the country.


My choice for sustainer is the FES (Front Electric Sustainer) for the following reasons:

1. It is extremely simple to operate.
2. It is very, very reliable.
3. It is very quiet.
4. It does a fine job at high elevation airports like Moriarty which is at 6,200 feet.
5. The "range" of 60 miles (or so depending on battery charge) is enough to get me back to Moriarty or to another airport.
5. If it were not to start, there is absolutely no additional drag penalty.

I will, most likely, never own another glider without one!
Thanks - Renny







--

Dan Marotta

Dan,
Negative...Mine actually did a test flight self-launch at the factory in Lithuania in 2011, but in the Flight Manual it is very specific about its operating limitations with the following statement:

"LAK-17B FES is a self-sustaining powered sailplane and is prohibited from taking off solely by the means of its own power."

Somehow this turned into a FES thread, not what I had intended. I would like comments from those with curent generation pop up factory installed sustainers. I noticed the POH's do not have performance information other than Standard conditions. Say if you have a solo 2350 what is the ceiling of climb ability? What are actual achieved results? Do you find you get less soaring as you have to stop looking for lift at a much higher altitude, and yo have a high minimum wing loading. Are you happy with the sustainer or do you wish you had gotten a pure glider? What are the downsides, the upsides. Have you experienced a failure to extend or to start, any idea what is the glider ration with engine extended. Do you prefer the two blades of Schleicher designs or the five blades of Schempp-Hirth, anyone flow a JS with jet? Does the sustainer make your flights safer as the possibility of a land is reduced. Has anyone suffered a failure resulting in damage? I am looking for as much information as the readers are willing to share. As for FES, we can start another thread but for this discussion I am interested in factory installed sustainers. Thank you all very much for your time and input.

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 4:03:05 PM UTC-6, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Somehow this turned into a FES thread, not what I had intended. I would like comments from those with curent generation pop up factory installed sustainers. I noticed the POH's do not have performance information other than Standard conditions. Say if you have a solo 2350 what is the ceiling of climb ability? What are actual achieved results? Do you find you get less soaring as you have to stop looking for lift at a much higher altitude, and yo have a high minimum wing loading. Are you happy with the sustainer or do you wish you had gotten a pure glider? What are the downsides, the upsides. Have you experienced a failure to extend or to start, any idea what is the glider ration with engine extended. Do you prefer the two blades of Schleicher designs or the five blades of Schempp-Hirth, anyone flow a JS with jet? Does the sustainer make your flights safer as the possibility of a land is reduced. Has anyone suffered a failure resulting in damage? I am looking for as much information as the readers are willing to share. As for FES, we can start another thread but for this discussion I am interested in factory installed sustainers. Thank you all very much for your time and input.

Jonathan,
Understand, but for the record, the FES was a "factory installed sustainer." With that you will hear not a word more from me on this subject....
Good luck in your research and have a safe soaring season.
Thx - Renny

On Sunday, April 5, 2015 at 3:03:05 PM UTC-7, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Somehow this turned into a FES thread, not what I had intended. I would like comments from those with curent generation pop up factory installed sustainers. I noticed the POH's do not have performance information other than Standard conditions. Say if you have a solo 2350 what is the ceiling of climb ability? What are actual achieved results? Do you find you get less soaring as you have to stop looking for lift at a much higher altitude, and yo have a high minimum wing loading. Are you happy with the sustainer or do you wish you had gotten a pure glider? What are the downsides, the upsides. Have you experienced a failure to extend or to start, any idea what is the glider ration with engine extended. Do you prefer the two blades of Schleicher designs or the five blades of Schempp-Hirth, anyone flow a JS with jet? Does the sustainer make your flights safer as the possibility of a land is reduced. Has anyone suffered a failure resulting in damage? I am looking for as much information as the readers are willing to share. As for FES, we can start another thread but for this discussion I am interested in factory installed sustainers. Thank you all very much for your time and input.

I do not own a sustainer, rather a motorglider (ASH26e) but some of the experience is relevant. 1) If you are looking at any auxiliary engine as a safety device, I think you will eventually be disappointed if not injured. 2) An engine significantly increases the pilot workload at just the moment you would like it to be reduced, that is when low and looking for lift or a landing site. 3) An engine increases maintenance for a glider by around 2x or maybe more. These are realities that must be considered along with any perceived benefits.

At 22:03 05 April 2015, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Somehow this turned into a FES thread, not what I had intended. I would
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ke comments from those with curent generation pop up factory installed
sust=
ainers. I noticed the POH's do not have performance information other
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Standard conditions. Say if you have a solo 2350 what is the ceiling of
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imb ability? What are actual achieved results? Do you find you get less
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oaring as you have to stop looking for lift at a much higher altitude,
and
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yo have a high minimum wing loading. Are you happy with the sustainer or
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o you wish you had gotten a pure glider? What are the downsides, the
upsid=
es. Have you experienced a failure to extend or to start, any idea what
is=
the glider ration with engine extended. Do you prefer the two blades
of
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Schleicher designs or the five blades of Schempp-Hirth, anyone flow a JS
wi=
th jet? Does the sustainer make your flights safer as the possibility of
a=
land is reduced. Has anyone suffered a failure resulting in damage? I
am=
looking for as much information as the readers are willing to share. As
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or FES, we can start another thread but for this discussion I am
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in factory installed sustainers. Thank you all very much for your time
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d input.


A couple of further points. I don't think I have ever climbed above about
4500 amsl,and never noticed any fall off in climb. Our engine was retro
fitted to a glider already made to take an engine, but not fitted when new.
The engine takes 25 seconds to erect, so away from home I use 1500 above
ground as the height to get the engine out, but quite happily start it from
a 1000 winch launch. My partner in another glider has a Ventus 2t which
only takes 15 seconds to erect, but occasionally pops the circuit breaker.
I suspect on later engines they reduced the gearing to reduce amps, our
circuit breaker has never popped.
We always ensure that the carbs are filled before flying, but our engine
rarely starts cleanly, it seems to fire on one cylinder for 5/10 secs
before developing full power.
Dave

The LAK-17 FES seems like a great glider and the FES really works nicely according to a friend of mine who owns one. Too bad Transport Canada, for some BS reason, has decided they aren't allowed to fly here.

At 08:22 05 April 2015, wrote:
The LAK-17 FES seems like a great glider and the FES really works
nicely
according to a friend of mine who owns one. Too bad Transport
Canada, for
some BS reason, has decided they aren't allowed to fly here.

To my mind the FES system makes a lot of sense as a self-launcher
on a light weight medium performance glider like the Silent Electro.
On a state of the art high performance new glider, however, I have to
think of the huge cost of advancing performance by e.g. 1 or 2% and
the the additional cost of taking that away by adding FES with its
folded prop.

On Saturday, April 4, 2015 at 1:08:53 AM UTC-4, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
Was hoping to get comments regarding a glider with a sustainer engine. Would you buy another one, are you happy with the sustainer, do you wish you had gotten a motor glider, a pure glider, how do you fly differently, do you actually get more soaring in or less because of the extra weight......

do you use headsets for hearing protection with engine running... engine can achieve a positive rate of climb to what density altitude....? Am considering purchasing a glider with a sustainer and am looking for all information I can get. i am a Western USA pilot, but have flown in many parts of the country.

My partner and I flew down to see 5U's 2CXT and liked it so much the we bought a new one two and a half years ago. I can echo everything 5U said and add to it. I had a self-launcher and probably will never have another due to the extra weight and complexity. I did indeed spend 2x thinking about THAT engine, plus a moderate degree of frustration. Did i mention weight? Wing loading was high and it was awfully hard for me to rig and de-rig. The engine battery itself weighed a lot and was difficult to get to. As to technique, yes, of course you have a field picked out. But you don't think too much about "well I'm 1200', time to get out the engine. It's more like, hey, I've been in dead air for a good while, nothing looks promising, I still have good maneuvering height, but I'm not leaving this area where this good field is below me, I think I'll drop the gear (always do that), and start a pattern. Oh, now, by the way, I'll see if the engine will start. It has never failed me, and I start it at the beginning of almost every flight. Only if the engine will be on for more than two minutes do I use the little orange "ribbed" earplugs that shooters wear. At what alt did I start it? I honesty don't know, but I'd guess usually around 1000'. If I had promising lift ahead and in range of a good field, I'd go down a bit lower. If the field is an airport, I'd go even lower.
But here's the selling point: Compared to the way I used to fly pure sailplanes, I now leave the airport earlier, I fly farther away, I come back later, I fly on weaker days, and I don't worry about a crew. I am relaxed flying with a sustainer ...... there is less stress and worry. The higher price tag is so worth it! About the third time you use the engine for a retrieve you'll decide that it has paid for itself. There are a lot of great pilots who rarely land out and don't need an engine; I am not one of them.

I got tired of pulling out of fields .... been there, done that. Now I get home in time for dinner.

Was wondering why you purchased the vents 2cXt, did you look at a ASG-29E or other turbo? Any comment on the five flooding blades of the S-H gliders as opposed to the two bladed fix prop on Schleicher"s. I would think the Schleicher would produce more thrust, but have higher vibration and noise level.