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#11
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 3:56 am, Sam Spade wrote: If controlled airspace was not involved you could do what you want. But, the rub comes in them providing you a clearance into (presumably 1200-foot floor Class E airspace without some procedure that assures obstacle clearance until reaching the minimum IFR altitude. Why is that a rub? The issue of no FAA procedure to provide obstacle clearance below the MIA once entering the Class E 1200-foot floor area. |
#12
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On 03/02/07 05:11, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 1, 11:51 pm, wrote: Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an approach and then depart IFR from there. My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on the ground? What's VIFNO? Google says: "Void IF Not Off by". Did they say why they couldn't issue a clearance while you were on the ground? It's not prohibited by FAAO 7110.65. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#13
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 5:11 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: On Mar 1, 11:51 pm, wrote: Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an approach and then depart IFR from there. My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on the ground? What's VIFNO? Did they say why they couldn't issue a clearance while you were on the ground? It's not prohibited by FAAO 7110.65. VIFNO = Void if not off by [sorry- old habits...] Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/ sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is 3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24 there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal on "first come, first, served"? BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude. That was the end of that conversation. |
#14
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 8:23 am, Sam Spade wrote:
The issue of no FAA procedure to provide obstacle clearance below the MIA once entering the Class E 1200-foot floor area. But why is that a rub? Obstacle clearance is the pilot's responsibility, it's not a concern to ATC. |
#15
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 5:41 am, Michelle P
wrote: wrote: Recently I tried to depart from an non-tower airport that has no instrument approach procedure, and hence no instrument departure. I was told that I could not get a clearance on the ground, even with VIFNO etc., and that I would have to depart VFR and pick my clearance up while airborne. The recommendation made to me by both TRACON and local FSDO for departing IFR with a low ceiling was to get a special VFR clearance into the towered airport 6 miles away [which has an approach and then depart IFR from there. My question is, if I take responsibility for staying away from the rocks [assume a low ceiling, above the tops of small hills, but below minimum vectoring altitude], shouln't I be able to get a clearance on the ground? Alan, PP-AMEL-IA What was your point of departure on your Flight plan. The Non-IFR airport or a IFR fix? Michelle The non-IFR airport- KRIR. |
#16
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 9:15 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
What's VIFNO? Google says: "Void IF Not Off by". FAAH 7340.1 says CVINO |
#17
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 8:23 am, Sam Spade wrote: The issue of no FAA procedure to provide obstacle clearance below the MIA once entering the Class E 1200-foot floor area. But why is that a rub? Obstacle clearance is the pilot's responsibility, it's not a concern to ATC. You would have to ask the TARCON and FSDO the original poster dealt with. |
#18
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On 03/02/07 08:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 9:15 am, Mark Hansen wrote: What's VIFNO? Google says: "Void IF Not Off by". FAAH 7340.1 says CVINO You asked what he meant and I told you. Sheeesh. |
#19
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
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#20
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 8:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote: Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/ sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is 3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24 there are taller rocks to the North]. Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure no one likes that when they can't see you. Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000 quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA. The issue witih KRAL is a non-issue as far as my question is concerned. There are many cases in which multiple towered airports are near each other and you can still get an IFR departure; both Northern and Southern California have many examples: SFO and SQL, HWD and OAK, SJC and RHV, HHR and LAX. The TRACON works it out; that is part of their job. Regarding terrain: I'm talking about a departure off 24 with a ceiling high enough to see and avoid all obstacles which, in any event, is not or should not be ATC's issue. I don't think either of these concerns is the cause of the issue here. |
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