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#21
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
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#22
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote:
Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/ sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is 3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24 there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal on "first come, first, served"? The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter controlled airspace southwest of Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR, direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else which mentions IFR departures from Flabob. BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude. That was the end of that conversation. Your experience with FSDO is not unusual. |
#23
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 10:35 am, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 03/02/07 08:04, Steven P. McNicoll wrote: You asked what he meant and I told you. Sheeesh. I didn't ask YOU what he meant. What qualifies you to speak for someone else? Sheeeeeesh. |
#24
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote:
Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure no one likes that when they can't see you. Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000 quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA. None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR. |
#25
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 11:39 am, Sam Spade wrote:
ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected. Nor do they have to. |
#26
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote: Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/ sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is 3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24 there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal on "first come, first, served"? The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter controlled airspace southwest of Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR, direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else which mentions IFR departures from Flabob. BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude. That was the end of that conversation. Your experience with FSDO is not unusual. Steven: Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they won't issue it... Alan |
#27
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 11:39 am, Sam Spade wrote: ATC does not know what ceiling you may elect on your hip-pocket ODP, nor would they care. Their concern is airspace. They cannot coordinate a procedure that is neither established nor flight inspected. Nor do they have to. You should look at the airport and airspace at issue. |
#28
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
On Mar 2, 10:41 am, Sam Spade wrote: Runway 24 takes you into the KRAL Class D almost immediately. I am sure no one likes that when they can't see you. Runway 6 is pointed towards terrain that causes the MVA to rise to 4000 quite close-in. The airport is in a terrible location both airspace and terrain-wise for IFR procedures. If you takeoff on 6 not only do you have a terrain problem there is an issue of the Ontario Class C with a floor of 2700 in that area, below any MVA. None of which precludes the issuance of an IFR clearance from RIR. I didn't say that it necessarily does. I can also understand why SoCal and KRAL tower don't want to do it. |
#29
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
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#30
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Instrument departure, non-IFR airport
On Mar 2, 10:45 am, Sam Spade wrote:
wrote: On Mar 2, 9:49 am, "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote: On Mar 2, 9:53 am, wrote: Some specfics will be helpful now: the airport is Flabob, KRIR, field elevation 764 MSL. I spoke with several folks and each seemed to have a different take. The TRACON controller was the most helpful/ sympathetic; he told me his Minimum Vectoring Altitude in that area is 3200 [in addition to a small hill off the departure end of RWY 24 there are taller rocks to the North]. I heard from both the controller and local pilots that zero-zero departures used to be permitted until about 2 years ago and since then clearances while on the ground have been unavilable. Now the airport is only 10 NM SE of Ontario...so I'm guessing that my IFR departure off Flabob negatively impacts their inbounds into ONT until they have identifed me on radar or I'm through the MVA. I have suspected this is the funcamental I'm not permitted a clearance and that until 2 years ago there may have been a Letter of Agreement between ONT tower and SoCal departure that permitted Flabob IFR departures. If so, am I not getting a raw deal on "first come, first, served"? The current SOCAL SOP specifies a procedure for clearances for two airports without published departure procedures, Flabob and Perris Valley. The RIR procedure is, "Cleared to (destination), enter controlled airspace southwest of Fla-Bob. When entering controlled airspace, proceed direct RAL VOR, direct PDZ (remainder of route), maintain 4000' MSL, expect (filed or TEC altitude) 10 minutes after departure." I can find nothing else which mentions IFR departures from Flabob. BTW, the FSDO guy was the least helpful: "No instrument departure, no clearances on the ground." When I protested that this was clearly in error he just repeated what he said, adding some impatient attitude. That was the end of that conversation. Your experience with FSDO is not unusual. Steven: Thanks. That makes sense and is what I would have expected. Is this SOP publicly available? I guess now I just have to find out why they won't issue it... Alan We used to have airports with ODPs that didn't have an IAP. Policy on that changed several years ago. This could be related to that policy change. You should call SoCal and ask to speak with an airspace specialist for the Ontario area. I believe they call it Empire. I just got off the phone with a supe for that sector. She was very "firm" that there is no SOP and no clearances will be provided. I gently pressed as much as I could about why, short of forcing her to hang up on me, and she acknowledged that terrain is my issue not ATCs, and implied that bad behavior in the on the part of local pilots in the past had caused them to suspend the procedure. She would not say what happened, but mentioned "What if you you go NORDO, what if we can't tag you, then we are holding up everything for ONT and other airports. " Of course, the same is true in many areas, so I think there is more to the story they are just not forthcoming about. Very frustrating. Meanwhile the KRAL controllers have been very helpful. It looks like, practically speaking, the only way I'm going to be able to depart KRIR with a low ceiling is by going SVFR to KRAL first, then proceeding IFR from there. Receiving ATIS and TWR on the ground at KRIR is not an issue and, traffic and wx permitting they will provide a SVFR clearance for KRAL while I'm still on the ground at KRIR. Not great, but will have to do it appears. |
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