Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

Jim Carter writes:

They also employ spoilers and can typically come down very quickly. Give
a more precise example of "becomes impossible to respect your descent
schedule" please.

I've tried spoilers and they don't always help enough.

I'm talking about the FMS disconnecting with a message like "ALT
UNACHIEVABLE" or something like that, when the deviation from the
expected descent profile gets too large.

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Jim Carter writes:

I seem to remember a "keep-em-high" program years ago that kept everyone
as high as possible for as long as possible to preserve fuel and reduce
noice. Could that policy still be in effect for some carriers?

I was thinking the same thing. They may have company policies that
require them to stay as high as possible for as long as possible to
save fuel (noise abatement probably isn't as much of an issue, but it
might still be a factor).

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Jim Carter wrote:


I seem to remember a "keep-em-high" program years ago that kept everyone
as high as possible for as long as possible to preserve fuel and reduce
noice. Could that policy still be in effect for some carriers?


The Keep 'em High program was an ATC program to keep aircraft at about
10K until 20 miles from the aiport. That program is no longer in
effect. All airlines have their own policies about this. As well all
modern aircraft can be told when to be at what altitude when and the
computer will handle it.

Newps writes:

The Keep 'em High program was an ATC program to keep aircraft at about
10K until 20 miles from the aiport.

What was its purpose?

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Mxsmanic wrote:

Sam Spade writes:


Never happens. Like the other gentleman says, the spoilers (actually
speed brakes when used in flight) are the "ace in the hole."


I've tried spoilers, but they aren't always sufficient to please the
FMC. Now I go through every leg of the route checking for
unreasonable-looking descents (or, theoretically, climbs, although the
FMC seems to calculate those more reliably).


In the 727 we didn't have any FMC to keep happy. We actually had to
figure it all out by ourselves.

Mxsmanic wrote:

Newps writes:


The Keep 'em High program was an ATC program to keep aircraft at about
10K until 20 miles from the aiport.


What was its purpose?

It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise then the
Stage III birds today.

Newps wrote:



Scott Skylane wrote:



Never say never I have asked for, and received a turn in the hold
to lose altitude, after arriving at the final fix about 10,000 feet
high. This was due to descent restrictions from center because of
other approaches in progress. The flight spoilers on a 727 are *very*
effective, but they can't perform miracles!


You also must also factor in pilot incompetence. I can't begin to tell
you how many times these jet pilots, almost always from the majors like
NWA and UAL as well as from the regionals like Skywest, report on the
freq 35 miles out at FL230 or higher. This is not centers fault as the
descent clearance was given about 200 miles out. Center usually gives a
PD descent and these guys continually foul it up. So to illuminate your
mistake I will drive you right at the airport and make you beg for mercy.


But, for every "incompetent" pilot from NWA and UAL how many do it so
smoothly you actually think they might know what they are doing?

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Spade ]
Posted At: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 7:37 PM
Posted To: rec.aviation.ifr
Conversation: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents
Subject: Requesting a hold from ATC for descents

....
It was eons ago...

Hey! I resemble that remark!

Sam Spade wrote:


It was eons ago. Primarly to keep the noise in near the airport. It
was when the majority of airline jets made much more noise then the
Stage III birds today.




The primary purpose was fuel efficiency.

Sam Spade wrote:





But, for every "incompetent" pilot from NWA and UAL how many do it so
smoothly you actually think they might know what they are doing?

10% of the crews have this problem.