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#21
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Unclear Clearance
On 04/13/07 10:35, Ron Natalie wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote: I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the words "Cleared to...". Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology. That's a good question. During my IR training, I was taught that a clearance must contain a certain set of items, one of which was the "Cleared To...". However, in looking at the FARs now, I don't see anything like that. Even the AIM says that a clearance "may contain" the item(s). I don't even see where the 7110.65 states that the clearance must contain these items - it just says "issue the following items as appropriate...". Hmmm, back to the books ;-\ -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#22
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Unclear Clearance
"Guillermo" wrote:
I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file: 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR clearance to FTY" JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your clearance in a few minutes" 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR. Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance limit. On the other hand, once you clarified your IFR status with the controller, everybody is on the same page, even if the right magic words weren't spoken. I'm not sure how you were supposed to navigate, but I guess I would just continue on my present heading. Whenever I'm not 100% I understand a clearance, I just read it back the way I'm planning on executing it; this gives the controller a chance to correct any errors (and gets it on the tape). In your case, I would have read back something like, "70V is IFR at this time, 3500 climbing 5000, XXX heading". |
#23
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Unclear Clearance
On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:
"Guillermo" wrote: I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file: 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR clearance to FTY" JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your clearance in a few minutes" 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR. Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance limit. To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit? I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include it, but none say it *must*). -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
#24
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Unclear Clearance
"Mark Hansen" wrote in message ... To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit? I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include it, but none say it *must*). SeeFAA Order 7110.65 paragraphs 4-2-1 and 4-3-2. http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff.../media/ATC.pdf |
#25
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Unclear Clearance
On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote: "Guillermo" wrote: I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file: 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR clearance to FTY" JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your clearance in a few minutes" 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR. Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance limit. To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit? I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include it, but none say it *must*). It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to? |
#26
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Unclear Clearance
On 04/14/07 10:38, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen wrote: On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote: "Guillermo" wrote: I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file: 70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR clearance to FTY" JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your clearance in a few minutes" 5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words "cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR. Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance limit. To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit? I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include it, but none say it *must*). It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to? The point is that there is no "rule" which states that for it to be valid, it must. -- Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot Cal Aggie Flying Farmers Sacramento, CA |
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