Unclear Clearance

On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)

I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.
When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.

Well, that was an improperly delivered clearance. What do you do if you
lose comm? (I suppose fly your flight plan, and hope he actually finds it.)

When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

No, I would not rely on that to be true, at least not without asking
=explicitly= if I am IFR.

Jose
--
Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

On 04/12/07 21:13, Guillermo wrote:
On Apr 9, 10:48 pm, "Travis Marlatte"
wrote:
This didn't cause any problems other than some additional radio traffic but
it caught me off guard. Let me know what you think...

As many people already stated, once you hear the magic words "cleared
to", it means you are already in the system, under IFR (you can now
fly in the clouds and do whatever they told you to do)

I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

So you can be IFR already even without having received your complete
clearance.
When the controller issues a "Climb to 5000", it IS a clearance, even
though it does not tell you where you are going (yet).

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...". In such a situation, I think the correct thing
to do is ask, as you did. However, I don't think what the controller
initially gave you should generally be interpreted as a clearance.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote:

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...".
Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology.

On 04/13/07 10:35, Ron Natalie wrote:
Mark Hansen wrote:

I don't think that's true. The FARs say that clearance must include the
words "Cleared to...".
Really, what FAR would that be? The FARs aren't much on phraseology.


That's a good question. During my IR training, I was taught that a
clearance must contain a certain set of items, one of which was
the "Cleared To...".

However, in looking at the FARs now, I don't see anything like that.
Even the AIM says that a clearance "may contain" the item(s). I don't
even see where the 7110.65 states that the clearance must contain these
items - it just says "issue the following items as appropriate...".

Hmmm, back to the books ;-\


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"Guillermo" wrote:
I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
limit. On the other hand, once you clarified your IFR status with the
controller, everybody is on the same page, even if the right magic words
weren't spoken. I'm not sure how you were supposed to navigate, but I
guess I would just continue on my present heading.

Whenever I'm not 100% I understand a clearance, I just read it back the way
I'm planning on executing it; this gives the controller a chance to correct
any errors (and gets it on the tape). In your case, I would have read back
something like, "70V is IFR at this time, 3500 climbing 5000, XXX heading".

On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:
"Guillermo" wrote:
I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
limit.

To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
it, but none say it *must*).



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

"Mark Hansen" wrote in message
...

To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
it, but none say it *must*).


SeeFAA Order 7110.65 paragraphs 4-2-1 and 4-3-2.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff.../media/ATC.pdf

On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:





"Guillermo" wrote:
I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
limit.

To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
it, but none say it *must*).



It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances
normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a
valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to?

On 04/14/07 10:38, Andrew Sarangan wrote:
On Apr 14, 12:45 pm, Mark Hansen wrote:
On 04/14/07 06:31, Roy Smith wrote:





"Guillermo" wrote:
I had another situation where it was a little more unclear, when
departing from an uncontrolled field, IFR plan on file:

70V: "jax center, Cessna 70V at xxxx, would like to pick up IFR
clearance to FTY"

JAX:"70V, squawk 1234, climb to 5000, I'll have the rest of your
clearance in a few minutes"

5000 feet would put me in the clouds, and having not heard the words
"cleared to", I wasn't sure if I was considered to be flying IFR at
this point, so I told the controller that 5000 would put me in the
clouds, and he responded to go ahead, that I was already IFR.

Technically, this is a bum clearance, since you didn't have a clearance
limit.

To help clarify an issue I tripped over the other day, can you please let
me know where it states that a clearance must include a clearance limit?
I've looked in the FARs, the AIM and th 7110.65 and can't find anything
which says a valid clearance must include this (some say it *may* include
it, but none say it *must*).



It is in AIM 4-4-3. But you are correct that it says "clearances
normally contain the following". However, how can you consider this a
valid clearance if you don't know where you are cleared to?




The point is that there is no "rule" which states that for it to be valid,
it must.



--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA