Altimeter Question

Andy Hawkins wrote in
:

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
They don't use any of the Q codes in the US. QNH is one of the few
still in use around the rest of the world, the rest are pretty much
archaich. You stil occasionally hear QFE in the UK, but no airlines I
know of are using it anymore since modern airplanes aren't designed
around their use (QFE settings on the altimeter **** up the computers
since the computer is anticipating a QHN setting to run a bunch of
other devices in the airplane, of which pressurisation is the most
relevant) Very occasionally you hear QSY which is "see you, I'm going
to talk to someone else" and QDM almost never nowadays, but it used
to be relatively common and it's Mag direction to a station. And even
less used QDR which is the Mag radial from a station. I think the
Maritime world might use a lot more of them still, though.

The UK PPL syllabus still teaches QNH, QFE (the military use it here,
and some civil airfields will give it in the initial response). QDM,
QDR and QTE (true bearing) are also taught. QDM is on the R/T
'practical' test generally.


But, like sticking to imperial measurements, I think you stand alone.
Britain is still clinging to a number of archaic aviation terms (you
still gotta know which direction to go whatever you choose to call it!)
One of my favorites is the "Pan" call. Nobody uses that anymore except
you guys. I had an entertaining few minutes in Germany listening to some
Nigel making one of these a few years back. It went something like this.
The Nigel Skipper is played Terry Thomas and the German controller by
Hardy Kruger in this re-creation.

Boffo Air 2234 "Rhine, Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC "Station calling?"
BA 2234 "Rhine this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC. "Boffo 2234, pass your message"
BA 2234 "Rhine, this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, say again?"
BA2234 "Rhine, this is a PAN call from Boffo 2234"
(at this point you can almost hear the Boffo skiper thinking "bloody
foreigners"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, are you declaring an emergency?"
BA2234 "Negative Rhine, Boffo 2234 is making a PAN call"
ATC, -silence-
BA 2234, Rhine, we have a pasenger having a heart attack, we're mkaing a
PAN call"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, do you wish to declare an emergency?"
BA 2234 "Nega- Oh, yes, yes, we're declaring an emergency, we'd like to
divert to Frankfurt immediatly. "
ATC, roger 2234, fly heading 330 and descend now to FL 150"

No ****, this really happened. I think it actually took longer than
this. The Brit captain just wouldn't let go....

I'm not sure but I think it was Thomas Cook.



Bertie

On Apr 18, 4:56*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Andy Hawkins wrote :





Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * *Bertie the wrote:
They don't use any of the Q codes in the US. QNH is one of the few
still in use around the rest of the world, the rest are pretty much
archaich. You stil occasionally hear QFE in the UK, but no airlines I
know of are using it anymore since modern airplanes aren't designed
around their use (QFE settings on the altimeter **** up the computers
since the computer is anticipating a QHN setting to run a bunch of
other devices in the airplane, of which pressurisation is the most
relevant) Very occasionally you hear QSY which is "see you, I'm going
to talk to someone else" and *QDM almost never nowadays, but it used
to be relatively common and it's Mag direction to a station. And even
less used QDR which is the Mag radial from a station. I think the
Maritime world might use a lot more of them still, though.

The UK PPL syllabus still teaches QNH, QFE (the military use it here,
and some civil airfields will give it in the initial response). QDM,
QDR and QTE (true bearing) are also taught. QDM is on the R/T
'practical' test generally.

But, like sticking to imperial measurements, I think you stand alone.
Britain is still clinging to a number of archaic aviation terms (you
still gotta know which direction to go whatever you choose to call it!)
One of my favorites is the "Pan" call. Nobody uses that anymore except
you guys. I had an entertaining few minutes in Germany listening to some
Nigel making one of these a few years back. It went something like this.
The Nigel Skipper is played Terry Thomas and the German controller by
Hardy Kruger in this re-creation.

Boffo Air 2234 "Rhine, Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC "Station calling?"
BA 2234 "Rhine this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC. "Boffo 2234, pass your message"
BA 2234 "Rhine, this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, say again?"
BA2234 "Rhine, this is a PAN call from Boffo 2234"
(at this point you can almost hear the Boffo skiper thinking "bloody
foreigners"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, are you declaring an emergency?"
BA2234 "Negative Rhine, Boffo 2234 is making a PAN call"
ATC, -silence-
BA 2234, Rhine, we have a pasenger having a heart attack, we're mkaing a
PAN call"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, do you wish to declare an emergency?"
BA 2234 "Nega- Oh, yes, yes, we're declaring an emergency, we'd like to
divert to Frankfurt immediatly. "
ATC, roger 2234, fly heading 330 and descend now to FL 150"

No ****, this really happened. I think it actually took longer than
this. The Brit captain just wouldn't let go....

I'm not sure but I think it was Thomas Cook.


I was taught PAN PAN format for urgency in my R/T. AsI far as I know
it's an ICAO standard. Are you saying there are controllers out there
who don't know this?

Cheers

WingFlaps wrote in
:

On Apr 18, 4:56*am, Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Andy Hawkins wrote
innews:slrng0ev04.7lo.andy@gently.
org.uk:





Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * *Bertie the wrote:
They don't use any of the Q codes in the US. QNH is one of the few
still in use around the rest of the world, the rest are pretty
much archaich. You stil occasionally hear QFE in the UK, but no
airlines I know of are using it anymore since modern airplanes
aren't designed around their use (QFE settings on the altimeter
**** up the computers since the computer is anticipating a QHN
setting to run a bunch of other devices in the airplane, of which
pressurisation is the most relevant) Very occasionally you hear
QSY which is "see you, I'm going to talk to someone else" and *QDM
almost never nowadays, but it used to be relatively common and
it's Mag direction to a station. And even less used QDR which is
the Mag radial from a station. I think the Maritime world might
use a lot more of them still, though.

The UK PPL syllabus still teaches QNH, QFE (the military use it
here, and some civil airfields will give it in the initial
response). QDM, QDR and QTE (true bearing) are also taught. QDM is
on the R/T 'practical' test generally.

But, like sticking to imperial measurements, I think you stand alone.
Britain is still clinging to a number of archaic aviation terms (you
still gotta know which direction to go whatever you choose to call
it!) One of my favorites is the "Pan" call. Nobody uses that anymore
except you guys. I had an entertaining few minutes in Germany
listening to some Nigel making one of these a few years back. It went
something like this. The Nigel Skipper is played Terry Thomas and the
German controller by Hardy Kruger in this re-creation.

Boffo Air 2234 "Rhine, Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC "Station calling?"
BA 2234 "Rhine this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC. "Boffo 2234, pass your message"
BA 2234 "Rhine, this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, say again?"
BA2234 "Rhine, this is a PAN call from Boffo 2234"
(at this point you can almost hear the Boffo skiper thinking "bloody
foreigners"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, are you declaring an emergency?"
BA2234 "Negative Rhine, Boffo 2234 is making a PAN call"
ATC, -silence-
BA 2234, Rhine, we have a pasenger having a heart attack, we're
mkaing a PAN call"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, do you wish to declare an emergency?"
BA 2234 "Nega- Oh, yes, yes, we're declaring an emergency, we'd like
to divert to Frankfurt immediatly. "
ATC, roger 2234, fly heading 330 and descend now to FL 150"

No ****, this really happened. I think it actually took longer than
this. The Brit captain just wouldn't let go....

I'm not sure but I think it was Thomas Cook.


I was taught PAN PAN format for urgency in my R/T. AsI far as I know
it's an ICAO standard. Are you saying there are controllers out there
who don't know this?

Cheers




Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying.. It's fallen from use completely.
I've never used Mayday either, though I would if I was in real trouble
to punch through the traffic. always just declared an emergency. That
incident I posted above happened just like I posted it. The idiot wasted
several minutes "trying to get Jerry to see some sense"

Bertie


Bertie

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
But, like sticking to imperial measurements, I think you stand alone.

What, like altitude in feet, altimiter settings in inches of mercury,
distance in miles, volume in gallons? Mr. Kettle, allow me to introduce
you to Mr. Pot

Britain is still clinging to a number of archaic aviation terms (you
still gotta know which direction to go whatever you choose to call it!)
One of my favorites is the "Pan" call. Nobody uses that anymore except
you guys. I had an entertaining few minutes in Germany listening to some
Nigel making one of these a few years back. It went something like this.
The Nigel Skipper is played Terry Thomas and the German controller by
Hardy Kruger in this re-creation.

Boffo Air 2234 "Rhine, Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC "Station calling?"
BA 2234 "Rhine this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC. "Boffo 2234, pass your message"
BA 2234 "Rhine, this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, say again?"
BA2234 "Rhine, this is a PAN call from Boffo 2234"
(at this point you can almost hear the Boffo skiper thinking "bloody
foreigners"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, are you declaring an emergency?"
BA2234 "Negative Rhine, Boffo 2234 is making a PAN call"
ATC, -silence-
BA 2234, Rhine, we have a pasenger having a heart attack, we're mkaing a
PAN call"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, do you wish to declare an emergency?"
BA 2234 "Nega- Oh, yes, yes, we're declaring an emergency, we'd like to
divert to Frankfurt immediatly. "
ATC, roger 2234, fly heading 330 and descend now to FL 150"

No ****, this really happened. I think it actually took longer than
this. The Brit captain just wouldn't let go....

The PAN actually sounds to me like a good idea, but as I always say I'm
still a lowly stude! Being able to differentiate between a Mayday (basically
aircraft in imminent danger) and PAN (something that needs priority but
nothing that will endanger the aircraft in short order) seems like a good
idea to me.

Anyway, the formt of his PAN PAN call was all wrong according to CAP 413

That's my current bug-bear actually. The only exam I've got left to do
(apart from the Skills test) is the R/T practical. On this, unless you're
word perfect on the Mayday call you've failed, but what are the odds of a
controller ignoring your mayday because you forgot (for example) your pilot
qualifications in the mayday call?

Andy

In rec.aviation.student Andy Hawkins wrote:
The PAN actually sounds to me like a good idea, but as I always say I'm
still a lowly stude! Being able to differentiate between a Mayday (basically
aircraft in imminent danger) and PAN (something that needs priority but
nothing that will endanger the aircraft in short order) seems like a good
idea to me.

Given the rarity of emergency calls, it seems like the important thing is
to make the emergency known in a simple and easy fashion first, then work
out the details later on as they're needed. The distinction is useful, but
I think that it's not worth putting extra workload on the pilot to figure
out just what degree his emergency is in his moment of crisis.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

On 04/18/08 08:38, Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Andy Hawkins wrote:
The PAN actually sounds to me like a good idea, but as I always say I'm
still a lowly stude! Being able to differentiate between a Mayday (basically
aircraft in imminent danger) and PAN (something that needs priority but
nothing that will endanger the aircraft in short order) seems like a good
idea to me.

Given the rarity of emergency calls, it seems like the important thing is
to make the emergency known in a simple and easy fashion first, then work
out the details later on as they're needed. The distinction is useful, but
I think that it's not worth putting extra workload on the pilot to figure
out just what degree his emergency is in his moment of crisis.


If the pilot is in a moment of crisis, then an emergency should be declared.
PAN is used when it is not at that level.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

Mark Hansen wrote in
news:Nr2dnRgnVOuoTpXVnZ2dnUVZ_t7inZ2d@surewest:

On 04/18/08 08:38, Michael Ash wrote:
In rec.aviation.student Andy Hawkins wrote:
The PAN actually sounds to me like a good idea, but as I always say
I'm still a lowly stude! Being able to differentiate between a
Mayday (basically aircraft in imminent danger) and PAN (something
that needs priority but nothing that will endanger the aircraft in
short order) seems like a good idea to me.

Given the rarity of emergency calls, it seems like the important
thing is to make the emergency known in a simple and easy fashion
first, then work out the details later on as they're needed. The
distinction is useful, but I think that it's not worth putting extra
workload on the pilot to figure out just what degree his emergency is
in his moment of crisis.


If the pilot is in a moment of crisis, then an emergency should be
declared. PAN is used when it is not at that level.



That's th epoint, Pan is no longer in the common lexicon. The guy I
quoted earlier risked his passeneger's life being a pedantic ****.


Bertie

If the pilot is in a moment of crisis, then an emergency should be declared.
PAN is used when it is not at that level.

The AIM goes into this in detail. MAYDAY is for an aircraft in distress,
while PAN-PAN is for an urgency condition. Both are emergencies:

6-1-2 a. An emergency can be either a distress or urgency condition as defined
in the Pilot/Controller Glossary. Pilots do not hesitate to declare an
emergency when they are faced with distress conditions such as fire,
mechanical failure, or structural damage. However, some are reluctant to
report an urgency condition when they encounter situations which may not be
immediately perilous, but are potentially catastrophic. An aircraft is in at
least an urgency condition the moment the pilot becomes doubtful about
position, fuel endurance, weather, or any other condition that could adversely
affect flight safety. This is the time to ask for help, not after the
situation has developed into a distress condition.

6-3-1 c. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any
subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the
signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times. The signal PAN-PAN should be
used in the same manner for an urgency condition.

http://www.faa.gov/airports_airtraff...6/aim0601.html

Barry schrieb:

6-3-1 c. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any
subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with the
signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times.

And here's an example how it may sound in real life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE

Stefan wrote in
:

Barry schrieb:

6-3-1 c. The initial communication, and if considered necessary, any
subsequent transmissions by an aircraft in distress should begin with
the signal MAYDAY, preferably repeated three times.

And here's an example how it may sound in real life:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KhZwsYtNDE


That's an example of how it does sound in real life...



Bertie