Altimeter Question

Andy Hawkins wrote in
:

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
But, like sticking to imperial measurements, I think you stand alone.

What, like altitude in feet, altimiter settings in inches of mercury,
distance in miles, volume in gallons? Mr. Kettle, allow me to
introduce you to Mr. Pot


I'm more of a frying pan than a kettle.

And you'll notice i have not excluded americans in this thread.

Britain is still clinging to a number of archaic aviation terms (you
still gotta know which direction to go whatever you choose to call
it!) One of my favorites is the "Pan" call. Nobody uses that anymore
except you guys. I had an entertaining few minutes in Germany
listening to some Nigel making one of these a few years back. It went
something like this. The Nigel Skipper is played Terry Thomas and the
German controller by Hardy Kruger in this re-creation.

Boffo Air 2234 "Rhine, Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC "Station calling?"
BA 2234 "Rhine this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC. "Boffo 2234, pass your message"
BA 2234 "Rhine, this is Boffo 2234, PAN PAN PAN"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, say again?"
BA2234 "Rhine, this is a PAN call from Boffo 2234"
(at this point you can almost hear the Boffo skiper thinking "bloody
foreigners"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, are you declaring an emergency?"
BA2234 "Negative Rhine, Boffo 2234 is making a PAN call"
ATC, -silence-
BA 2234, Rhine, we have a pasenger having a heart attack, we're
mkaing a PAN call"
ATC, "Boffo 2234, do you wish to declare an emergency?"
BA 2234 "Nega- Oh, yes, yes, we're declaring an emergency, we'd like
to divert to Frankfurt immediatly. "
ATC, roger 2234, fly heading 330 and descend now to FL 150"

No ****, this really happened. I think it actually took longer than
this. The Brit captain just wouldn't let go....

The PAN actually sounds to me like a good idea, but as I always say
I'm still a lowly stude! Being able to differentiate between a Mayday
(basically aircraft in imminent danger) and PAN (something that needs
priority but nothing that will endanger the aircraft in short order)
seems like a good idea to me.

Anyway, the formt of his PAN PAN call was all wrong according to CAP
413


I can't remember precisely what he said, but the jist of the
conversation is there and it's pretty much the way it happened. I don;'t
even know the format off th etop of my head, but he probabyl did it
right.

That's my current bug-bear actually. The only exam I've got left to do
(apart from the Skills test) is the R/T practical. On this, unless
you're word perfect on the Mayday call you've failed, but what are the
odds of a controller ignoring your mayday because you forgot (for
example) your pilot qualifications in the mayday call?

Pretty slim. I've never even used the Mayday and I've had several
emerencies and just declared an emergency and got everything I needed. I
think I'd ony use a Mayday to cut through heavy radio traffic if it was
neccesary.


Bertie

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
I'm more of a frying pan than a kettle.



And you'll notice i have not excluded americans in this thread.

Glad to hear it!

I can't remember precisely what he said, but the jist of the
conversation is there and it's pretty much the way it happened. I don;'t
even know the format off th etop of my head, but he probabyl did it
right.

The format for a PAN is the same as for a Mayday. The book I have uses NAAN
IPPA as the reminder:

Name of station addresses
Aircraft callsign
Aircraft type
Nature of emergency

Intentions
Position (alitude, heading etc.)
Pilot qualifications (bit pointless if you ask me, but I guess it might be
useful to know you've got no Instrument rating)
Any other info

Pretty slim. I've never even used the Mayday and I've had several
emerencies and just declared an emergency and got everything I needed. I
think I'd ony use a Mayday to cut through heavy radio traffic if it was
neccesary.

As I understand it that's the primary reason for a standardised word, that
it enables you to cut through all the other traffic and everyone else knows
to shut up.

Andy

Andy Hawkins wrote in
:

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
I'm more of a frying pan than a kettle.



And you'll notice i have not excluded americans in this thread.

Glad to hear it!

I can't remember precisely what he said, but the jist of the
conversation is there and it's pretty much the way it happened. I
don;'t even know the format off th etop of my head, but he probabyl
did it right.

The format for a PAN is the same as for a Mayday. The book I have uses
NAAN IPPA as the reminder:

Name of station addresses
Aircraft callsign
Aircraft type
Nature of emergency

Intentions
Position (alitude, heading etc.)
Pilot qualifications (bit pointless if you ask me, but I guess it
might be useful to know you've got no Instrument rating)
Any other info

Pretty slim. I've never even used the Mayday and I've had several
emerencies and just declared an emergency and got everything I
needed. I think I'd ony use a Mayday to cut through heavy radio
traffic if it was neccesary.

As I understand it that's the primary reason for a standardised word,
that it enables you to cut through all the other traffic and everyone
else knows to shut up.


And a PAN just doesn't in most of the world.

Also, you're standard format is only after you have th e controller's
attention. He couldn't get that, that's the problem, and he wasted
minutes with a sick pax trying to push the correct format down this guys
throat. A Mayday or "I'm declaring an emergency" would have done that.
Most of the other sutff in that is pretty useless as its part of normal
comms anyway. What you need to do is simplay say "mayday and you're call
sign. the guy you're talking to already knows who he is and chances are
good you've forgotten anyway if you're that excited. Then you quickly
tell him what you're problem is and what you are going to do and what
you want from him and he will give it to you. There's no extra charge
for making a Mayday call as opposed to a Pan. I did a BA course years
ago and they were advocating downgrading your mayday to a Pan in the
case of, say, an engine fire. Once you have the fire out, you're not in
a Mayday situation anymore since the airplane is not in any immediate
danger. Screw that. If I've had an engine fire and I think it's out I'm
still going to want to put the airplane down ASAP and I'm not going to
be too concerned with ATC's problems. They're big boys and can apportion
attention between my airplane and the others in the area.
I wouldn't be thanked at the subsequent inquiry for not taking advantage
of everything at my disposal.


Bertie

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
As I understand it that's the primary reason for a standardised word,
that it enables you to cut through all the other traffic and everyone
else knows to shut up.


And a PAN just doesn't in most of the world.

Ok. Well, that should be addressed in either removing PAN from the ICAO
specs or by ensuring that all controllers know about it.

Agree with all you say about the 'standard' format. In the case of a real
emergency I think all that'll be on my mind is a quick summary of the issue
so that someone is aware of it, and then I'll be concentrating on sorting it
(particularly if the big whirly thing in front of me isn't whirling any
more).

One of my instructors (a very experienced RAF pilot) actually advocated
making the mayday call and then switching the radio off in the case of an
engine failure, as otherwise the military unit we'd likely be talking to
would probably want all sorts of other information, and my attention could
best be spent dealing with the problem at hand.

Andy

Andy Hawkins wrote in
:

Hi,

In article ,
Bertie the wrote:
As I understand it that's the primary reason for a standardised
word, that it enables you to cut through all the other traffic and
everyone else knows to shut up.


And a PAN just doesn't in most of the world.

Ok. Well, that should be addressed in either removing PAN from the
ICAO specs or by ensuring that all controllers know about it.

Well, i'm sure the German controller had been taught about it, but it's
just never used these days. That guy was the one and only PAN call I've
ever heard, and I've heard dozens of emergencies over the years. An
additional problem is accents and the confusion they can cause when a
phrase that isn't used all the time is used. I was told years ago by s
chief pilot I worked for never to use a PAN call for exactly the reason
that guy in Germany shouldn't have..

Agree with all you say about the 'standard' format. In the case of a
real emergency I think all that'll be on my mind is a quick summary of
the issue so that someone is aware of it, and then I'll be
concentrating on sorting it (particularly if the big whirly thing in
front of me isn't whirling any more).

Yeah, fly the airplane first. If you have time to discuss things with
ATC, fine, if you don't, you don't! They understand that you're loaded
up when you make the emergency. Their job from that point is to reduce
your load in any way they can.



One of my instructors (a very experienced RAF pilot) actually
advocated making the mayday call and then switching the radio off in
the case of an engine failure, as otherwise the military unit we'd
likely be talking to would probably want all sorts of other
information, and my attention could best be spent dealing with the
problem at hand.


Well, I think I'd leave th eradio on myself! At least you can tell em
where you've gone down.

On Apr 20, 5:34*am, Andy Hawkins wrote:


One of my instructors (a very experienced RAF pilot) actually advocated
making the mayday call and then switching the radio off in the case of an
engine failure, as otherwise the military unit we'd likely be talking to
would probably want all sorts of other information, and my attention could
best be spent dealing with the problem at hand.



That would be very dumb. Suppose their question was "Where are you?"
Just rememeber flying the plane always comes first.

Cheers

Hi,

In article ,
wrote:
On Apr 20, 5:34*am, Andy Hawkins wrote:


One of my instructors (a very experienced RAF pilot) actually advocated
making the mayday call and then switching the radio off in the case of an
engine failure, as otherwise the military unit we'd likely be talking to
would probably want all sorts of other information, and my attention could
best be spent dealing with the problem at hand.



That would be very dumb. Suppose their question was "Where are you?"
Just rememeber flying the plane always comes first.

Yeah, I think his comment was slightly tongue in cheek. Anywhere, they're
know where I was is I used the full Mayday call as we're supposed to.

For reference (again CAP 413 http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP413.PDF)

Page 137 contains the full mayday call and some examples.

Andy