Altimeter Question

On Apr 20, 10:23*pm, Andy Hawkins wrote:
Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * wrote:

A relayed Mayday is likely to be on there too, from memory the call is:

Mayday mayday mayday, G-ABCD have intercepted Mayday from G-WXYZ, I say
again, G-WXYZ.

Nope, your memeory is quite confused. *"I say again" sounds like
Hollywood R/T.

I should probably have made it more clear that I'm in the UK.

Here's CAP413, the definitive guide for R/T in the UK

The relayed Mayday is on page 139.

'I say again' is used in a number of place I seem to remember. The other one
that springs to mind is when ATC instruct an aircraft to abort take off.


Well it's completely redundent, a waste of time and could be confused
with "say again". All you need to do is just repeat the message!
What's I find strange is that the stated format of the mayday ralay
does not follow international conventions. I wonder who wrote it?

This is how it should be:

Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay, (station 3x), Received
mayday (distress station) (distress message reproduced), mayday

Cheers

Hi,

In article ,
wrote:

Well it's completely redundent, a waste of time and could be confused
with "say again". All you need to do is just repeat the message!
What's I find strange is that the stated format of the mayday ralay
does not follow international conventions. I wonder who wrote it?

That document is the official CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) reference for
R/T, presumably for the UK.

The introduction says it is based on ICAO Annex 10 Volume 2 (Communications
Procedures). It also includes the following statement:

"Where the ICAO standard phraseology may be misunderstood, or has weaknesses
in the UK environment, different phraseology has been specified (and
notified to ICAO). Significant differences between the ICAO standard
phraseology and that specified for use in CAP 413 are described in Appendix
1 to this publication."

Appendix 1 doesn't mention any differences in the Mayday messages.

(Note, I'm not arguing you're wrong, I don't know enough to be able to do
that. Just repeating what the documentation I've been reading says)

Andy

On Apr 21, 10:59*pm, Andy Hawkins wrote:
Hi,

In article ,
* * * * * wrote:

Well it's completely redundent, a waste of time and could be confused
with "say again". All you need to do is just repeat the message!
What's I find strange is that the stated format of the mayday ralay
does not follow international conventions. I wonder who wrote it?

That document is the official CAA (Civil Aviation Authority) reference for
R/T, presumably for the UK.

The introduction says it is based on ICAO Annex 10 Volume 2 (Communications
Procedures). It also includes the following statement:

"Where the ICAO standard phraseology may be misunderstood, or has weaknesses
in the UK environment, different phraseology has been specified (and
notified to ICAO). Significant differences between the ICAO standard
phraseology and that specified for use in CAP 413 are described in Appendix
1 to this publication."

Appendix 1 doesn't mention any differences in the Mayday messages.

(Note, I'm not arguing you're wrong, I don't know enough to be able to do
that. Just repeating what the documentation I've been reading says)


Fair enough. It's what happens when desk jockies take over running the
world. God forbid they should bother to check what is known/
established. That way they get to keep their jobs endlessly revising
poor practice.


Cheers

WingFlaps schrieb:

Fair enough. It's what happens when desk jockies take over running the
world. God forbid they should bother to check what is known/
established. That way they get to keep their jobs endlessly revising
poor practice.

The worst practice is not to adhere to the communication standards.

In rec.aviation.student Stefan wrote:
WingFlaps schrieb:

Fair enough. It's what happens when desk jockies take over running the
world. God forbid they should bother to check what is known/
established. That way they get to keep their jobs endlessly revising
poor practice.

The worst practice is not to adhere to the communication standards.

Seems to me the worst practice is to fail to communicate clearly when it's
possible to do so.

This can be because you're using nonstandard phrasing (done this) or
because you insist on using standard phrasing when it's not working (never
done this, I think). Ultimately the goal is to communicate, and the
standards are just a means to that end; if they're giving you trouble, say
whanever you need to say however you need to say it to get the point
across.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

Michael Ash schrieb:

Seems to me the worst practice is to fail to communicate clearly when it's
possible to do so.

This can be because you're using nonstandard phrasing (done this) or
because you insist on using standard phrasing when it's not working (never

As a pilot, I would expect the pros at ATC to understand standard
phraseology. And as a non native English speaker, I would expect the
pros at ATC to speak to me in standard phraseology.

Ultimately the goal is to communicate, and the
standards are just a means to that end; if they're giving you trouble, say
whanever you need to say however you need to say it to get the point

Many pilots use this argument as an excuse while they are just too lazy
to learn the proper phraseology. Never forget that those standards have
been set for a reason and many of them have been written with blood.

In rec.aviation.student Stefan wrote:
Michael Ash schrieb:

Seems to me the worst practice is to fail to communicate clearly when it's
possible to do so.

This can be because you're using nonstandard phrasing (done this) or
because you insist on using standard phrasing when it's not working (never

As a pilot, I would expect the pros at ATC to understand standard
phraseology. And as a non native English speaker, I would expect the
pros at ATC to speak to me in standard phraseology.

Ultimately the goal is to communicate, and the
standards are just a means to that end; if they're giving you trouble, say
whanever you need to say however you need to say it to get the point

Many pilots use this argument as an excuse while they are just too lazy
to learn the proper phraseology. Never forget that those standards have
been set for a reason and many of them have been written with blood.

And likewise the opposite argument is used as an excuse for failing to
adapt when standard phrasing fails. Like the "pan pan" idiot whos antics
started this thread.

Personally I never fly anywhere where radio communication is required in
the first place, and there's a ton of nonstandard phrasing floating around
by the people who are using their radios. The standards are useful but
only as far as they actually work, and when they stop working you ought to
be prepared to do what it takes to get what you need.

--
Michael Ash
Rogue Amoeba Software

WingFlaps,

That way they get to keep their jobs endlessly revising
poor practice.


It's worse when everybody and their brothers come up with their own
personal idea of what is good practice in radio communcations.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Andy Hawkins schrieb:

What's I find strange is that the stated format of the mayday ralay
does not follow international conventions. I wonder who wrote it?

The introduction says it is based on ICAO Annex 10 Volume 2 (Communications
Procedures).

It is.

International Civil Aviation Organization
International Standards and Recommended Practices and Procedures for Air
Navigation Services

Annex 10
Aeronautical Telecommunications

Sixth Edition October 2001


5.2.1.5.8 The following words and phrases shall be used in
radiotelephony communications as appropriate and shall have the meaning
ascribed hereunder:

Phrase: I SAY AGAIN
Meaning: "I repeat for clarity or emphasis."

WingFlaps,

Well it's completely redundent, a waste of time and could be confused
with "say again". All you need to do is just repeat the message!

Your opinion is all fine and well. However, the gold standard on this is ICAO. As
Andy says, "I say again" is ICAO standard phraseology per Annex 10 Volume II
(http://www.caa.govt.nz/ICAO/Annex_10..._Cmp_Stmt.pdf).

For the US, check the Pilot Controller Glossary as the definitive and official
source for phraseology. Under "I", you'll find:

I SAY AGAIN- The message will be repeated.

This is how it should be:

Mayday relay, mayday relay, mayday relay, (station 3x), Received
mayday (distress station) (distress message reproduced), mayday

And the source for that is?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)