Stress/Anxiety Driven Accidents

On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:

With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction times
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.

I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests the use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I question the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different ages and fitness levels.

Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 70 = 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating stress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 20 = 200 bpm.

I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the numbers presented.

Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-20046887?pg=2

"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220. For example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum heart rate of 175."

Very interesting discussion with a lot to think about.

I'd just like to make one caution which is do not try to use absolute values of HR to measure anything. A more reliable measure is % of max HR. There is much more variability in maximum HR between healthy individuals than the commonly quoted (and discounted in peer reviewed articles) formulas suggest. I'm a healthy fit 57 yr old male who exercises regularly with a max HR of over 200, with a similar aged friend who has a max HR under 170. Interestingly both of us have resting heart rates around 60.

I'd be very interested to see a reference to the source of the HR ranges published above, not that a problem with the value of the given ranges matters to the underlying thesis which is well worth exploring.

On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 6:04:58 AM UTC+10, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:

With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction times
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.

I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests the use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I question the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different ages and fitness levels.

Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 70 = 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating stress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 20 = 200 bpm.

I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the numbers presented.

Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-20046887?pg=2

"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220. For example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum heart rate of 175."

At 21:36 04 March 2018, wrote:
Very interesting discussion with a lot to think about.=20

I'd just like to make one caution which is do not try to use absolute
value=
s of HR to measure anything. A more reliable measure is % of max HR.
There
=
is much more variability in maximum HR between healthy individuals than
the=
commonly quoted (and discounted in peer reviewed articles) formulas
sugges=
t. I'm a healthy fit 57 yr old male who exercises regularly with a max HR
o=
f over 200, with a similar aged friend who has a max HR under 170.
Interest=
ingly both of us have resting heart rates around 60.=20

I'd be very interested to see a reference to the source of the HR ranges
pu=
blished above, not that a problem with the value of the given ranges
matter=
s to the underlying thesis which is well worth exploring.

On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 6:04:58 AM UTC+10, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:
=20
With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction
time=
s
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.=20
=20
I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests
the
=
use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I
quest=
ion the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different
ages=
and fitness levels.
=20
Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate
o=
f 220 - 70 =3D 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating
st=
ress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart
rat=
e of 220 - 20 =3D 200 bpm. =20
=20
I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the
n=
umbers presented.
=20
Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:
=20

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...h/exercise-in=
tensity/art-20046887?pg=3D2
=20
"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220.
F=
or example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum
h=
eart rate of 175."

Mark

Sorry for the delayed response, it took me a while going back thru my
rather extensive lists of links, articles and saved pages to find what I
think your looking for in regard to elevated heart rates with exercise as
opposed to elevated heart rate resulting from the fight or flight response.
This link should answer that.

http://scienceline.org/2007/06/ask-hsu-fightorflight/

I will say that throughout my relatively extensive research into this
subject.
It's been a disappointment to not stumble across some psychology paper or
doctoral thesis that provides all of this data in one source. The majority
of my information has been gleaned from articles relating to police, fire
and military training. While there is no doubt in my mind that there is a
link between the fight or flight response, tunnel vision and glider
accidents. But without tangible proof, it's just a reasonable hypothesis.
But there are allot of glider pilots in the world and if enough of us
start collecting and saving data, maybe eventually some college or
institution will step up and take it on as a project. In the mean time if
anyone finds anything worthwhile relating to this subject, by all means
forward it to me at

Are people really suggesting fitting a heart rate monitor and using it in
flight?

Someone is having a difficult time, their heart rate is going up and then a
heart rate warning comes up. This has now added something else for them to
cope with, thus increasing the prospect of getting overloaded.

Chris

At 21:36 04 March 2018, wrote:
Very interesting discussion with a lot to think about.=20

I'd just like to make one caution which is do not try to use absolute
value=
s of HR to measure anything. A more reliable measure is % of max HR.
There
=
is much more variability in maximum HR between healthy individuals than
the=
commonly quoted (and discounted in peer reviewed articles) formulas
sugges=
t. I'm a healthy fit 57 yr old male who exercises regularly with a max HR
o=
f over 200, with a similar aged friend who has a max HR under 170.
Interest=
ingly both of us have resting heart rates around 60.=20

I'd be very interested to see a reference to the source of the HR ranges
pu=
blished above, not that a problem with the value of the given ranges
matter=
s to the underlying thesis which is well worth exploring.

On Monday, March 5, 2018 at 6:04:58 AM UTC+10, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:
=20
With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction
time=
s
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.=20
=20
I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests
the
=
use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I
quest=
ion the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different
ages=
and fitness levels.
=20
Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate
o=
f 220 - 70 =3D 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating
st=
ress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart
rat=
e of 220 - 20 =3D 200 bpm. =20
=20
I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the
n=
umbers presented.
=20
Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:
=20

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...h/exercise-in=
tensity/art-20046887?pg=3D2
=20
"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220.
F=
or example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum
h=
eart rate of 175."

son_of_flubber wrote on 3/4/2018 12:04 PM:
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:

With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction times
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.

I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests the use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I question the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different ages and fitness levels.

Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 70 = 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating stress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 20 = 200 bpm.

I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the numbers presented.

Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-20046887?pg=2

"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220. For example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum heart rate of 175."

The heart rate you calculate is for exercising purposes - a way of giving you a
safe rate to plan your exercising without a medical exam or stress test. I very
much doubt the number is useful for the panic/fear stress we are talking about.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate of @145 when that heart rate is stress induced. Equivalent or higher exercise induced heart rates do not have the same reduction on performance. Well trained people are able to maintain skills into the 145 BPM range. No idea if what most of us do as glider pilots counts as well trained for performing under high stress. I'd guess not.
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 12:03:16 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
son_of_flubber wrote on 3/4/2018 12:04 PM:
On Saturday, March 3, 2018 at 6:30:09 AM UTC-5, soarin wrote:

With a heart rate elevated to 115-145 BPM,
complex motor skills, visual reaction times and cognitive reaction times
are at their peak. However, between 145-175 mental and physical
performance begins to suffer dramatically.

I've no problem with the general idea, but since the author suggests the use of a heart rate monitor to measure stress level in the cockpit, I question the applicability of these specific numbers to pilots of different ages and fitness levels.

Talking averages... A 70 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 70 = 150 bpm. I'd guess that he would experience debilitating stress well below 145 bpm. A 20 year old pilot would have a maximum heart rate of 220 - 20 = 200 bpm.

I'm not trying to say anything authoritative. I'm just questioning the numbers presented.

Source for calculation of maximum heart rate:

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-l...-20046887?pg=2

"to calculate your maximum heart rate is to subtract your age from 220. For example, if you're 45 years old, subtract 45 from 220 to get a maximum heart rate of 175."

The heart rate you calculate is for exercising purposes - a way of giving you a
safe rate to plan your exercising without a medical exam or stress test. I very
much doubt the number is useful for the panic/fear stress we are talking about.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 7:09:06 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate of @145 when that heart rate is stress induced.

I have a hard time believing that 145 bpm is a constant threshold across all ages and fitness levels. Does anyone know of a peer reviewed citation for that magic number? (Facebook and infowars.com do not count as legit 'research'.)

How many 75+ year old hearts can even beat at 145+ bpm? Does the 145 bpm rule make older glider pilots immune from stress induced skill degradation? I think not.

Approximately 145. Interesting question does the performance reducing BPM number lower with age or are older folks inoculated against stress related performance decrease because of an inability to jack up their heart rate? Of course no one is going to get review board approval to test stress response in 75+ year olds. Be interesting to replicate limited BPM range with medication and see if performance still declines under stress.
This is an annoying read but discusses some studies of performance under stress. https://www.amazon.com/Combat-Psycho.../dp/0964920549
There is a lot of real research out there but as you note the internet is broken, I wouldn't bother looking without medical library access. And not just the military the evil soda merchants spend a lot of money researching this stuff as well. https://www.si.com/edge/2015/05/08/s...ormance-center
Us highspeed hardcore pro sailplane pilots are a sad lot compared to people that take human performance seriously.
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 8:36:01 AM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 7:09:06 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate of @145 when that heart rate is stress induced.

I have a hard time believing that 145 bpm is a constant threshold across all ages and fitness levels. Does anyone know of a peer reviewed citation for that magic number? (Facebook and infowars.com do not count as legit 'research'.)

How many 75+ year old hearts can even beat at 145+ bpm? Does the 145 bpm rule make older glider pilots immune from stress induced skill degradation? I think not.

son_of_flubber wrote on 3/28/2018 5:35 AM:
On Wednesday, March 28, 2018 at 7:09:06 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate of @145 when that heart rate is stress induced.

I have a hard time believing that 145 bpm is a constant threshold across all ages and fitness levels. Does anyone know of a peer reviewed citation for that magic number? (Facebook and infowars.com do not count as legit 'research'.)

How many 75+ year old hearts can even beat at 145+ bpm? Does the 145 bpm rule make older glider pilots immune from stress induced skill degradation? I think not.

I'm sure the 145 doesn't apply to everyone! The 145 number is for 75 year olds, is
based on a simple formula, and is only an estimate used to choose a safe heart
rate limits during exercise. It's strictly age-based and the actual safe number
will differ greatly within that age group.

Any 75 year old with above average fitness can reach that heart rate easily just
by running for a few minutes, jumping jacks, etc. I'm 75, modestly fit, and 30
seconds of jumping jacks gets me up to 135 bpm; I'd expect a full minute would
get me to 145. No tunnel vision...

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Dec 2014a" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

http://soaringsafety.org/prevention/...anes-2014A.pdf

At 11:09 28 March 2018, wrote:
Mental and physical performance reduction does occur above a heart rate
of
=
@145 when that heart rate is stress induced. Equivalent or What does
knowing that you have a high heart rate do to your stress levels?
Jim