Emergency Exit

The biggest negative for the BRS is cost. Ongoing with inspections/repacking and timed replacements
Also I have seen a video testing it with a Discus and there are certainly issues with speed and attitudes.
Tom
....

At 21:22 01 July 2018, Mike Schumann wrote:

Maybe people think that the NOAH system is a half baked solution.

Do people really think that not having a solution at all is better than a
partial one?

It's tricky, perhaps impossible, to retro fit a BRS to a
DG1001M or DG808C type sailplane with a pylon mounted
engine. So I'd say the NOAH system was a sensible alternative
given the pilot(s) would be wearing conventional parachutes.
In the absence of BRS equipped sailplanes for sale NOAH
seems to me a very desirable option.
Clearly if the major glider manufacturers offered BRS this
would be better still.
Whether DG purchasers see NOAH as "half baked" is an
interesting question. My guess is that the majority of
purchasers never believe they will have a mid-air collision or
structural failure and so just choose to save themselves
8,000€.

The idea that "cost" is a significant factor in fitting BRS
systems in gliders is simply woefully ill-informed.
A new single seat sailplane is perhaps 100K€ - 200K€?
A new two seat self launch is perhaps 180K€ - 300K€?
A new BRS is perhaps 7K€? This is less than the cost of an
upmarket variometer system!
And the true cost of one life lost is...well look it up on the
internet, it's a surprisingly high figure.
Dave W

I had the opportunity to fly with a Ventus 2BXR (R for Recovery) at Saint-Auban (France). With that experience, I'd say a BRS in a glider is not a very practical solution as far as I'm concerned.

Due to the ballistic extractor being placed under the fuselage skin between the wings, it could shoot out exactly where your head would be when pushing the glider. Therefore, there are multiple safety systems to verify, a separate electrical circuit, a safety pin to extract just before taking off, and to put back in place after landing before exiting the glider. Sure as hell, you are bound to forget something if you do not strictly follow a written checklist every time.

At Saint-Auban, I had to sign a specific document stating my knowledge of the system before being allowed to fly the glider. The CNVV ended up selling the glider because these limitations made it financially uninteresting.

I once forgot to take the safety pin out (you still can do it in flight, fortunately), once to put it back (really a bad idea, but I'm not used to a check-list before exiting a glider)...

Stephane


Le samedi 30 juin 2018 21:04:53 UTC+2, Mike Schumann a écritÂ*:
On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
At 14:33 30 June 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
To me the major advantages of a BRS over a personal
parachute are the
speed and certainty of deployment.Â* Of course either
system may fail or
malfunction, but with the BRS, you lose the difficulty of
getting out
into space and deploying at in unfavorable position. Simply
pull the
handle and enjoy the ride.

But, upon landing in a windy situation, you run the very
real risk of
being killed in a tumbling, disintegrating wreck being
dragged along the
ground.Â* Is there a jettison capability that could be armed
by the
sudden deceleration of landing?Â* Perhaps an automatic
jettison?Â* Might
that malfunction at 500' and give you a last thrilling ride?

On 6/29/2018 10:49 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Beacause floating around out of control under a
parachute is safer?
BRS sounds good, but in practice I would prefer a
personal chute every
time.

--
Dan, 5J

Of course you could be struck by lightening as you descend
under your BRS canopy but has anyone ever died being
"dragged along the ground" after a successful BRS escape?
Plenty have died following a conventional parachute mal-
function.
The bottom line is that BRS will work at a lower height but is
hardly available in any common sailplane on sale today.
Retro fitting a BRS to an EASA sailplane would be a
expensive, possibly impossible, task. With ultra-light
sailplanes it's different.
The other major problem, as clearly explained on DG's
website, is that "safety does not sell sailplanes". The
majority of DG sailplanes sold were NOT equipped with the
NOAH system: the new buyers simply did not order the
NOAH system. Even if BRS was available today how many
buyers would buy it?
Dave W

If a BRS system were available factory installed at a reasonable price, I suspect that a very large percentage of buyers would sign up. It's a huge selling point if you are trying to get the OK from your spouse to upgrade to a new glider.

Offering a BRS system standard on all of their airplanes is probably the #1 reason that Cirrus is now the largest piston engine aircraft manufacturer in the world.

On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 2:22:38 PM UTC-7, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Sunday, July 1, 2018 at 4:00:18 PM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
At 19:04 30 June 2018, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Saturday, June 30, 2018 at 1:45:05 PM UTC-5, Dave
Walsh wrote:
At 14:33 30 June 2018, Dan Marotta wrote:
To me the major advantages of a BRS over a
personal=20
parachute are the=20
speed and certainty of deployment.=C2=A0 Of course
either=20
system may fail or=20
malfunction, but with the BRS, you lose the difficulty
of=20
getting out=20
into space and deploying at in unfavorable position.
Simply=20
pull the=20
handle and enjoy the ride.

But, upon landing in a windy situation, you run the
very=20
real risk of=20
being killed in a tumbling, disintegrating wreck
being=20
dragged along the=20
ground.=C2=A0 Is there a jettison capability that could
be armed=20
by the=20
sudden deceleration of landing?=C2=A0 Perhaps an
automatic=20
jettison?=C2=A0 Might=20
that malfunction at 500' and give you a last thrilling
ride?

On 6/29/2018 10:49 PM, Charlie Quebec wrote:
Beacause floating around out of control under a=20
parachute is safer?
BRS sounds good, but in practice I would prefer
a=20
personal chute every
time.

--=20
Dan, 5J

Of course you could be struck by lightening as you
descend=20
under your BRS canopy but has anyone ever died
being=20
"dragged along the ground" after a successful BRS
escape?
Plenty have died following a conventional parachute mal-
function.
The bottom line is that BRS will work at a lower height
but is=20
hardly available in any common sailplane on sale today.
Retro fitting a BRS to an EASA sailplane would be a=20
expensive, possibly impossible, task. With ultra-light=20
sailplanes it's different.
The other major problem, as clearly explained on
DG's=20
website, is that "safety does not sell sailplanes". The=20
majority of DG sailplanes sold were NOT equipped with
the=20
NOAH system: the new buyers simply did not order
the=20
NOAH system. Even if BRS was available today how
many=20
buyers would buy it?
Dave W

If a BRS system were available factory installed at a
reasonable price, I
s=
uspect that a very large percentage of buyers would sign
up. It's a huge
s=
elling point if you are trying to get the OK from your
spouse to upgrade
to=
a new glider. =20

Offering a BRS system standard on all of their airplanes is
probably the
#1=
reason that Cirrus is now the largest piston engine aircraft
manufacturer
=
in the world.

Yes you're probably quite right about the Cirrus BUT in a
Cirrus you might well have wife and kids along for the ride.
The fact remains that the majority of DG customers do not
specify the NOAH system; it's actually relatively cheap
compared to the new cost of a DG808C or DG1000x. Why is
that?
Dave W


Maybe people think that the NOAH system is a half baked solution. Cirrus and Phoenix think that BRS systems are important enough that they make them standard and a significant part of their marketing.

The NOAH system is far from "half baked". DG actually developed a system that works, and they are the only ones that have for a glider. Approximately two thirds of the non-motor gliders sold, have sustainers engines where the BRS would go, hence the NOAH. This is an emergency assist. The chance of needing such a device is as rare as needing to jump, yet DG stepped up to the plate and designed and tested a solution, that is affordable (about 4,000 euro before installation). Comparing Phoenix and Cirrus aircraft, with their marketing, design, customers base, and funding sources, to gliding is with all due respect "half baked".

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 7:45:06 AM UTC-5, Dave Walsh wrote:
It's tricky, perhaps impossible, to retro fit a BRS to a
DG1001M or DG808C type sailplane with a pylon mounted
engine. So I'd say the NOAH system was a sensible alternative
given the pilot(s) would be wearing conventional parachutes.
In the absence of BRS equipped sailplanes for sale NOAH
seems to me a very desirable option.
Clearly if the major glider manufacturers offered BRS this
would be better still.
Whether DG purchasers see NOAH as "half baked" is an
interesting question. My guess is that the majority of
purchasers never believe they will have a mid-air collision or
structural failure and so just choose to save themselves
8,000€.

The idea that "cost" is a significant factor in fitting BRS
systems in gliders is simply woefully ill-informed.
A new single seat sailplane is perhaps 100K€ - 200K€?
A new two seat self launch is perhaps 180K€ - 300K€?
A new BRS is perhaps 7K€? This is less than the cost of an
upmarket variometer system!
And the true cost of one life lost is...well look it up on the
internet, it's a surprisingly high figure.
Dave W






I think that the lack of enthusiasm for NOAH isn't the cost, but the lack of a perceived advantage. If you have a midair or a control problem at a high enough altitude where bailing out is an option, many pilots don't think they'll have a problem getting out of the cockpit.

If you have a midair in the pattern, you're so low that NOAH isn't going to help. A BRS system on the other hand can save you. If you look at accident statistics, a lot of midairs occur at these altitudes. Pilots understand this, and manufacturers like Cirrus and Phoenix have demonstrated that they are willing to pay to improve their odds in these types of accidents.

I have flown with a a 1050-BRS for about 10 years in two Genesis-2 sailplanes (sold one, missed it, so I bought another one and the BRS availability was a big part of deciding to buy another one), I can provide some basic info. The deployment max airspeed is 138 mph and 1050# G/W with no stated max or minimum altitude, but saves have been obtained as low as 350 feet! Repack every 6 years for $1000 bucks and replace rocket fuel every 12 years (cost unknown, but estimate the 12 year repack and new fuel should come in under $1500. Initial cost is $5000+ 1000 installation (in a Genesis-2). The Genesis is the most comfortable ship I have ever flown because the personal chute was replaced by a 4" pad with only lap belt and shoulder harness. No way to jettison the chute, but that's also true with most back-packs used in sailplanes. I believe it would take a good 40 knot wind to drag the whole sailplane on the ground, after landing..........and if that were to happen, I believe I would just wait for the ship to hang up on something.
The system is well engineered with safety pin used on the ground and even if the red handle were accidentally kicked with pin out, it takes a 35# pull about 6" to fire the rocket! I take great comfort in my ability to just pull the little red handle should it ever become necessary.
Hope this helps,
JJ

On Monday, July 2, 2018 at 8:00:44 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have flown with a a 1050-BRS for about 10 years in two Genesis-2 sailplanes (sold one, missed it, so I bought another one and the BRS availability was a big part of deciding to buy another one), I can provide some basic info. The deployment max airspeed is 138 mph and 1050# G/W with no stated max or minimum altitude, but saves have been obtained as low as 350 feet! Repack every 6 years for $1000 bucks and replace rocket fuel every 12 years (cost unknown, but estimate the 12 year repack and new fuel should come in under $1500. Initial cost is $5000+ 1000 installation (in a Genesis-2). The Genesis is the most comfortable ship I have ever flown because the personal chute was replaced by a 4" pad with only lap belt and shoulder harness. No way to jettison the chute, but that's also true with most back-packs used in sailplanes. I believe it would take a good 40 knot wind to drag the whole sailplane on the ground, after landing..........and if that were to happen, I believe I would just wait for the ship to hang up on something.
The system is well engineered with safety pin used on the ground and even if the red handle were accidentally kicked with pin out, it takes a 35# pull about 6" to fire the rocket! I take great comfort in my ability to just pull the little red handle should it ever become necessary.
Hope this helps,
JJ

What is the structural path from parachute risers to pilots seat/seatbelts? That seems to me to be the weakest link with BRS implementation.

The "bridle" consists of 4 straps that attach to the 4 lift fittings, which are 2" wide webbing. On deployment, they exit through the 15X24 BRS hatch, then up to a giant carabiner that attaches them to one big riser coming from the 36' parachute. Rocket is about 4" below this hatch and aimed at the forward end. Hatch Is secured with 1/2" tape and will separate with a good wack...........I taped it up, then gave it a good wack with a rubber mallet..
JJ

Hi,

I think the NOAH system is a great product.

Below is a note from DG in regard to installations in gliders not made by DG/LS.

“In general it is possible and certified to install NOAH in LS/DG single seaters and Schempp-Hirth (discus/ventus, all fuselages except “a�). We could provide the material kits for those, to be installed in an authorized workshop in the US. For Schleicher (Asw-27, Asg-29 and ASH-26/31) prototypes have been installed, but the installation has not been certified as yet. However we could provide kits as well, only to be installed in “experimental� ships.

All customers who are interested can send us an inquiry and then we will find a solution to deliver the NOAH kit to the USA. We are currently checking availability, installation documentation and prices of the Schempp-Hirth and Schleicher installations.�

Let me know if you want a quote on an NOAH system for your sailplane.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

On Wednesday, June 27, 2018 at 9:39:40 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Not to change Dave's thread on leaving the Arcus, I was intrigued by
Francois' mention of the slippery cockpit floor in the front cockpit of
the Numbus 4DM.Â* I've noticed that in most single seaters I've flown and
I'm happy to say that my Stemme is fully carpeted to the forward
bulkhead which makes for better traction when climbing out. It still
takes a lot of upper body strength and, at 70 years old, I'm working out
3 days per week to try to keep some of that.

Everyone, please make every exit after a flight a simulated exit. Locate
those jettison handles, but don't actuate them.Â* Raise the canopy
normally and then bail out.Â* Release that belt, rise up, and roll over
the side.Â* You should have enough slack in oxygen and water hoses to not
stretch them.Â* But please practice!
--
Dan, 5J